A long time ago I wrote about the kind of daughter-in-law I felt that MIL wanted and the impossibility of her existence. I was thinking today about the flip side – that I also had an image of the MIL I wanted and that she probably wouldn’t exist in real life.
Sometimes, when I read others’ experiences, I think about how different my life would be now if I had a similar scenario when engaged to my husband. And you know how I like to play Choose Your Own Adventure with my life, so I think about things like this, even though I’m happy now and wouldn’t trade what I have.
Had my in-laws accepted me and welcomed me from day one, I think my life and our family life would be different. Back then, I wanted to learn about Saresh’s family, their customs, and to bond with my new future in-laws. I was interested in Indian culture, Hinduism, India, etc. I would have been receptive to a lot of things – learning to cook Indian food (less spicy though and minus the gulab jamun! LOL), visiting the temple, perhaps learning some Telugu, and who knows what else. I was just open.
However, as MIL and FIL continued to fight against Saresh marrying me, I became more and more closed. By the time we were married, I didn’t much care to learn anymore. And I know it wasn’t because I just lost interest, but because it was perhaps a retaliation? Or maybe more so because all these things reminded me of people who wanted to get rid of me? I haven’t analyzed it enough to know for sure. Over the years, I would attempt to learn things on my own (the interest still being there), maybe picking up a book on Hinduism. But I would sit down to read and just didn’t want to anymore.
I wonder sometimes what things would be different had I been accepted and loved. Would I have a closet full of custom-made saris that I liked to wear to weddings and parties? Would I be a consummate Indian cook? Would I know more about Hinduism? Would MIL and I do stuff together on our own? Would I have already been to India? Maybe not and things would be fairly similar to what they are now – I just don’t know.
I don’t believe my life would be radically different, but I think there might be little things like that – more melding of culture. It’s ironic that by fighting against the idea of this scary unknown white wife, MIL lost a part of that daughter-in-law she was wanting so much. I wasn’t going to be that DIL, but there were things that I could have been – maybe would have wanted to be. Instead, a different relationship pattern formed between us. We’re good enough now (better than a lot of in-law relationships, I’d say!), but I still think we both missed out on some of the MIL and DIL we had dreamed of.
So many years have passed that this doesn’t make me sad to think this way; it’s more curiosity and the never-ending processor that is my brain. I like how things are now and our family relationships work just fine. I just wonder…
One of the saddest things for me has been the total lack of family on Ang’s side. While you had to deal with the issues that come from tight family relationships, Chinese families have been decimated by China’s “one child only” policy. Ang has very little family because of it. It makes me so sad! I always wanted my kids to have what I had – lots of aunts and uncles and cousins. And that just can’t happen.
By: chineseambassador on June 16, 2008
at 1:41 pm
This is unrelated to your post (although I’ll throw in that I used to have a good relationship with my MIL when she lived 1200 miles away and now I can’t stand her…she’s just an annoying, nosy, judgemental pentecostal PITA…you have my highest regards for even trying–I would’ve told the inlaws to FO long ago).
Anyway, back to the unrelated subject. They are finally sentencing an Indian father who had his daughter in law murdered because she was African American. She was the stepdaughter of one of our tv newsreporters, so even though it happened quite a few years ago, it is getting a lot of play on the news.
His only reason for having her killed was because he was unhappy that his son married outside of his “Indian nationality”. That was his defense.
It’s not personal, don’tcha know.
By: Mom on the Run on June 16, 2008
at 3:05 pm
I have thought a lot about what kind of daughter-in-law my boyfriend’s mother wants. While I know that as a white American woman I’ll never live up to her expectations (a Telugu Brahmin girl with an auspicious horoscope), I have this (quite possibly naïve) notion that if I embrace Indian culture, then she’ll be more willing to accept me and our marriage. I see it as my way of showing her that I’m not trying to take her son away from her…
When my boyfriend went home to Andhra Pradesh in December, I sent portraits of myself dressed in a traditional sari for him to show his parents. I am slowly learning Telugu. I’m the one who insists that we go to (Hindu) temple once every couple months. I have every intention of raising our children with as deep an appreciation of their Indian heritage as possible.
But, as it stands right now, my boyfriend’s mother is absolutely mortified that her son likes an American girl. She’s asking what she did wrong in raising him and she’s worrying what everyone would say if he did the unthinkable and actually married me.
Your post leaves me wondering how I will react once I finally come face to face with my future mother in law. Will I be able to continue embracing Indian culture even as she rejects me? It’s completely understandable that your interest in the culture decreased when that culture tried to turn you away. I respect your & your husband’s strength to withstand such major opposition to your marriage. And I am so encouraged to discover your blog and to know that couples have persevered in similar situations.
By: Casteless Girl on June 16, 2008
at 6:48 pm
CBC, I’m glad that you’ve come to an understanding about your in-laws. You do seem to have a good relationship with them now, and I think you set a good example for what can happen if you stick with getting the parents to accept you.
MotR, what a horrible story! I hope that guy rots for what he did.
Casteless Girl, I hope that you are able to form a good relationship with your in-laws. It can take a lot of work, but it will be worth it in the end. Just make sure your boyfriend stands up for you — that can make a big difference in both your relationship with his parents and your relationship with him.
On an unrelated note, one of G’s cousins is marrying a half Telegu, half white guy (his mom is white). His parents have been married for about 30 years. Not sure what his grandparents thought of that, because I thought it was a personal question to ask the first time I met someone, but it always amazes me to hear about intercultural couples that got together so long ago.
By: D on June 16, 2008
at 7:31 pm
MOTR – I hadn’t heard that story (but as CA points out, I don’t read much news LOL). That’s just sad and horrible. Reminds me of so-called “honor killings.”
Casteless Girl – Welcome! I read your first post on your blog – I’m sorry for your pain. I know the confusion and hurt it caused me, and I still deal with lingering anger issues (not said to make you feel worse!). Does your boyfriend spend much time with them in India, or do they plan to move here by him? It’s hard when they’re so far away for him to even talk with them about it. Not that it’s easy if they were in the same place, but distance can make it harder.
Feel free to vent, ask questions, etc. I’ve done more than my fair share of venting here, so consider it a safe place because I know it’s hard and not always fair to do that to your significant other when it’s about his/her family.
By: colorblindcupid on June 16, 2008
at 7:33 pm
Thank you for the warm welcome. Seriously, I’m reading your responses and tears are coming to my eyes. While this relationship has been completely worthwhile, it’s also a pretty lonely path to walk – I don’t know any other American-Indian couples.
My boyfriend’s parents don’t have any plans to move to the States. They have four adult children living in India as well as two grandchildren and their extended families. My boyfriend manages to visit annualy for about three weeks at a time. So yes, we have the barrier of distance, in addition to everything else.
Again, I’m really glad I found you all.
By: Casteless Girl on June 16, 2008
at 9:17 pm
We all know I was never open to the culture, so I won’t even claim that, but I would say I grew from tolerant and respectful to aggressively hostile as I sensed a pattern of iciness and insularity from my SO’s parents. I came to see their shortcomings as a symptom of not only their own traits and choices, but of their culture, and who would want to learn about a culture that enabled behavior like that? Admittedly, after I went to an event and felt a similar vibe from others (and just didn’t like it and thought it was tacky), that didn’t help. But I do think I began as much more kind and tolerant than I am now, and I probably would have stayed that way if I’d received the same respect that I gave.
This is definitely a fascinating post for point out the irony of Indians’ self-fulfilling prophecy. And, remembering CBC’s story about hearing some Indian claim Indians were smarter than whites, it begs the question of, if that is true in any way at all, it certainly is not true in terms of social intelligence. For such a manipulative culture, it’s interesting to realize how poor they probably are at manipulating Americans.
Thinking about it, the most successfully manipulative people are termed “high-Mach” (for Machiavellian) in academic journals. But I would say Indians are fairly low-Mach when you take into account the results. They’d like to successfully manipulate, so the motivation is there, but it’s pretty unsophisticated in technique and not all that effective.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on June 17, 2008
at 6:34 pm
BGS,
I am curious. Which racial group, if any, is considered “high-Mach”. I’d like to believe that I am low on Machiavellian tendencies and as far as I can tell so is my wife. So hopefully our progenies will stay that way.
Also is this quality a social construct, or is it something that is genetic? Either way, I’d imagine that there is considerable variation amongst Indians, after all we all don’t have the same cultural values. So when you say things like “Indians’ self-fulfilling prophecy”, it might be nice to qualify it with some room for exception, else you are indeed insulting mine and possibly many other Indians’ cultural values and in many ways the moral standards with which we define ourselves. May be the society that we live in is a tad bit over PC, but in my opinion, such courtesies are not redundant.
By: Sooraj on June 18, 2008
at 7:35 pm
HELLO, Sooraj – the irony of the self-fulfilling prophecy is illustrated by this post and all over the site by the authors’ and others’ almost mirror-image stories. You may not like it, but it’s a trend worth noting. Post after post reiterates the same tale of struggles with scared and closed-minded parents who create through their actions exactly what they fear will happen, when it might not happened have otherwise (e.g., read above).
There are so many stories on this site about that that I definitely do not owe you any polite qualification by naming one-by-one the zillion stories on here that illustrate it, and mentioning that there may be a rare exception. Maybe you need to do some more reading. We agreed long ago we wouldn’t bother appeasing people like you by putting a little asterisk to note exceptions. We’re very obviously talking about averges and commonalities shared here, and if you want to see what the average experience is, read around some more and stop bothering us with nonsense comments like this.
I don’t think you read what I said about the Mach construct, and I don’t think it’s any great insight that not *all* Indians are manipulative. Whether by personality or by culture (and it sounds like it’s the latter in the case of Indian parents but the former also occurs in all cultures), agreement up until this point has been that there are some extreme control and manipulation attempts on the part of Indian parents, at a minimum. We have also noted it among siblings and relatives. Unless you want to argue that Indian parents don’t by and large use enormous amounts of guilt to manipulate (and that everyone on this site who agrees that they do is wrong), then I don’t see any value in your comment.
I do intend to insult manipulative people, and particularly the morals of manipulative parents who don’t believe in self-determination and try to control their childrens’ marriages, careers, and behaviors.
I hope this is clear, and that you will take yourself elsewhere if you need speech to be perfectly p.c. and free of generalizations. We get enough of that b.s. elsewhere, and it stifles dialogue about real correlations and perceptions, so unless you have a counterexample in the form of a specific story you’d like to share, then just leave.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on June 18, 2008
at 8:54 pm
BGS, wow, I didn’t know you moderated this blog.
I thought I was contributing constructively. And yes I do have many a specific stories that are counterexamples, most of which features my family or friends. Such stories are posted here as well as elsewhere on the web.
As to being insulted, I am and I will be insulted by generalizations which insinuates that I fall into particular group that I don’t belong to. You may or may not like it, but that is just the way it is.
One thing I agree with CBC whole heartedly is when she gets pissed off at people when they say it isn’t personal. Well it is.
By: Sooraj on June 18, 2008
at 9:25 pm
Sooraj, you’ve just stepped into a situation in which some of us are completely exhausted by all the new people who stumble onto this blog, read one post or comment, and then leap in with “NOT ALL ARE LIKE THAT”.
Some of us don’t add the addendum to our comments, i.e. “this is not meant to paint all Indians/Chinese/white people with the same brush, it’s merely a pattern I’ve witnessed” type of thing. Around here it’s just a given that we don’t mean to say that everyone is the same.
For instance, I will not make ANY comment on here about Hinduism without also adding this at the bottom of my comment:
“Some Christians suck. We know this. But this convo is about something besides how much Christians suck.”
Just to keep it all nice and even, ya know?
I try to remind BGS to add her disclaimers, but she’s kind of bull-headed that way.
By: chineseambassador on June 18, 2008
at 10:52 pm
Thanks, CA. I have to say I find it kind of comical that the day I get back from my posting “break,” I get a comment like that. Perhaps it’s time to enjoy my whitey life and stop worrying about these things altogether.
And Sooraj, I don’t dislike that you are insulted. But thanks for asking. If you are so insulted that we have these common experiences, and you and your parents and your wife are truly different – Congratulations! What are you doing about all the people in your Indian community who aren’t different? Or do you deny that the trend that we see exists?
And are you insulted by CBC’s stories? Because they and their counterparts resemble my experiences and they fuel my comments. So maybe you’d be better off thinking beyond yourself and about the trends you see here if you really are interested in the issues we are discussing in one of the only open dialogue spaces we have available to us.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on June 19, 2008
at 2:22 am
sigh.
BGS, you don’t have to pretend you love Indian culture here. And Sooraj is welcome to describe his lovely family and how they are so NOT like the people you know. It’s all good.
I have to say that in real life, all of the Indians I worked with and went to school with were lovely people (except for this one prof I had who was really anal about homework – ha!) – so I don’t have the same negative feelings toward their culture that you do.
That being said, I ain’t trying to marry into an Indian family. So vent away. But try to remember that this is blog-world, not academia, so things you say here are not taken with the clinical objectivity that you desire!
I wrote a post that totally rips on white people, so I can’t wait til that goes up. LOL We need to even things up here.
By: chineseambassador on June 19, 2008
at 1:21 pm
Woo hoo! Welcome, Sooraj. I hope you stay; I need some backup from some more people like you. I’m in total agreement. My husband’s family is quite fabulous.
My in-laws definitely have the guilt thing down, but they practice it in a more subtle way (”I’m so disappointed in you”…let the guilt commence) and in less of a dramatic way (”we will disown you/threaten to kill ourselves/continue to try to set you up with an arranged marrage”). My agnostic white mom is pretty good at the subtle guilt tripping, too.
By: D on June 19, 2008
at 2:44 pm
I don’t think I’m looking for any “clinical objectivity.” I’m just asking for fair consideration of the points at hand, without overly restrictive p.c. rules because people can’t stand to hear that there are trends in their culture. And I thought, long ago, that was what you guys said you wanted? You weren’t as middle-of-the-road when it was you two being attacked for not having enough disclaimers, and it was me that came to your defense. But that is fine. Honestly, this is it for me. I’m happy to leave you guys to the blog. CA and CBC, it was really nice meeting you and hearing about your stories. Good luck!
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on June 19, 2008
at 3:43 pm
What *I* want is for people to feel like they can say what’s on their mind. I want BGS and anyone who feels too afraid to say what’s really on their mind anywhere else (lest they be labeled racist, intolerant, etc.) to be able to say what they really feel because I believe it’s important to acknowledge that people feel that way, including me – none of which makes them/us a horrible person (a whitey elitist, etc.), contrary to what others may say or try to make you feel. No one can work through their situations if they’re not even allowed to acknowledge how they feel about it – the good, the bad and the ugly.
People are going to be pissed at what we all say – no matter what we say. If it doesn’t piss off one person, it will piss off another. I can’t even say something nice sometimes without someone getting offended, and I can’t even figure out why! You can’t even convey true emotion on a comment, so even that gets misinterpreted. You don’t know who’s typing on the other end of the line so you’re missing all kinds of levels of understanding.
Given all that, I don’t see why it has to be this big deal – why can’t Sooraj be upset AND you be upset at what he says? Why can’t you discuss it or choose not to discuss it if you don’t want to? What difference does it make if you’re both saying your piece and you disagree with each other? Other than irritating each other, what difference does it make if you’re not even understand or acknowledging where the other comes from?
I just don’t think it has to be either/or. And then maybe I don’t even get what the problem is at all at this point.
By: colorblindcupid on June 19, 2008
at 4:13 pm
My parents have thus far taken me only on one kind of guilt trip. Which is that I have become way too corrupted by capitalism. ” You have become too American and become insensitive to the poor and the downtrodden, what happened to all the socialist values we raised you with?” that sort of stuff.
I hope the NSA isn’t reading this. Hm… that may have been a keyword that will trigger an investigation. Oh well.
By: Sooraj on June 19, 2008
at 4:50 pm
BGS – what is your graduate field? Have you taken any statistics courses?
I’m not trying to be critical (and I like hearing your POV and hope you continue posting), but I completed my master’s in developmental economics a couple of years ago and it was drummed into my head in all of our econometrics and statistics courses that “the plural of ancedote is not data”.
It seems like very bad science/statistics to me to take a few data points – espeically from a nonrandom sample – and then make a claim about any sort of trend from that data. For the non-statistics geeks out there, by “nonrandom sample” I mean that the group posting & commenting here don’t represent a normal slice of, well, anything. It’s the same sort of problem you see in long questionares where only the people very interested in the subject take the time to fill everything out. And even if you have a perfectly random sample, you need at least 30 or so data points before you can make any sort of conclusion without getting into some high-level theory/data maniulation that I don’t know much about.
Anyways, I just wanted to point out that it would be very bad social science/statistics to make any general claims from just this blog. Not that I think everyone is doing that – just wanted to keep people aware.
By: Katie on June 19, 2008
at 6:37 pm
Thanks, CBC, I appreciate the thoughts and I definitely agree. I think the frustration comes from Sooraj’s wanting to censor people’s speech lest he disagree with a perception rather than sharing his own story or thoughts as an addition.
Even D, per the comment above, seems to just want to hear people who agree. I’m totally fine hearing people disagree, but to try to invalidate someone’s perception because yours are different is just too idiotic and frustrating to justify spending time trying to talk.
For instance, above, there was no disagreement because there was no discussion. It’s not like Sooraj had anything to say about the issue I highlighted (and that you did in your post). There was no specific talk about the manipulative behavior, whether it works and who engages in it and when, about the pushing away that results in the self-fulfilling prophecy. He just wanted to throw out one of those, “Don’t generalize!” vacuous comments that ignores the commonalities we’re supposed to be free to discuss. That is why I am not posting anymore. The Soorajs and Ds and Inbetweens want to have a lovefest instead of asking hard questions and considering them fairly.
Call me too academic for the blog, but it’s just too annoying to deal with people who can’t suppress their knee-jerk reactions to perspectives they don’t like to talk about the issues. I’ve never told anyone else I didn’t want to hear about their positive stories, their views that are different than mine. But I want to consider the issues in their entirety, ugly trends and all, not just gloss them over with p.c. qualifications. That prevents any insight or understanding or criticism of the culture and behavior we’re talking about.
I’ll put it this simple way to end – if there weren’t generalities, however great or however ugly, no one would read this blog.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on June 19, 2008
at 8:24 pm
Sooraj – I totally think the gov’t monitors WAY more than people realize (and CA thinks I’m a bit crazy on this topic). I wouldn’t be surprised. The only post I ever had on here “disappear” into the ether for a while before it came back suddenly had to do with Iraqi marriages to Americans. Maybe I’m a conspiracy theorist, but I find that suspicious.
“I’ll put it this simple way to end – if there weren’t generalities, however great or however ugly, no one would read this blog.” Well, CA would read it. That’s pretty much how we started anyway – just reading each other’s posts. LOL Of course, that’s really more of a diary I guess…
By: colorblindcupid on June 19, 2008
at 9:05 pm
I’m keeping my promise about not posting after this one, but I’m kind of insulted (again) by this statistics comment. I have a Masters in statistics, actually. And I’m not making scientific claims about cause and effects. I’m talking about a trend in our experiences. Real at a statistically significant level or not, they’re real to each one of us.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on June 19, 2008
at 10:17 pm
My husband,S, and I are just in the early stages of our relationship (met last August, married in March). He has been to see my family twice and his parents just arrived from India last week (spent the weekend with them).
It is awkward at the moment (we all seem to be shy, reserved people), but I think they are genuinely good, highly educated, gentle people and perhaps more open minded than my own Catholic-Lutheran family.
When they visited our apartment most of their questions were about what kinds of food we eat, is it homemade, and complimenting us on our statues of Ganesha and Hanuman.
At the moment S and I are trying to find a balance between Indian and American.
My own family has had questions and doubts. They weren’t surprised I married someone from a different culture, but weren’t prepared for marrying a non-Christian.
We are having a Catholic blessing ceremony in August and I thought it would be nice to have either the Hanuman or Ganesha statue that was present at our tiny East Coast wedding. Mom and aunt got freaked out a bit by that and said no, especially since the Indian ceremony will be 100% lingayat hindu.
For now, staying open and learning more about their culture is my plan as is trying to explain it to my own family.
I can’t speak for other families and other Indian cultures. I appreciate hearing all the viewpoints and reading all the stories of others.
By: annisat on June 19, 2008
at 11:04 pm
yes I would still read it because you are fabulous, dahhling.
You said it. No matter what we say, we’re going to piss people off and get dumped on. I know D and others wish we were just a happy lovefest all the time. And BGS would like to get down and discuss the bad stuff without constantly being chastised with the “Don’t say that, you’re generalizing!” whoop-de-doo.
I don’t think we can make this place work for everyone, so we’ll just make it work for ourselves. And let the pieces fall where they may. (So far we have more friends then haters, so we must be ok. And a certain number of haters is required to be cool in blogland, so again. We rock.)
muhahhaha.
By: chineseambassador on June 20, 2008
at 1:53 am
I don’t think it’s necessary to have a happy lovefest all the time. However, I don’t think it’s constructive to have constant Indian-bashing, as BGS tends to do. I throw in my POVs and my disclaimers because seriously, a lot of people find the negative generalizations offensive (e.g., Sooraj, InBetween and others who have left the site because it became too negative). I don’t see the big deal in qualifying a statement with “In my experience.” Everyone has different experiences and different viewpoints, and those are valid as long as you don’t start generalizing to the entire population of billions of Indian people in the world.
I was happy to see Sooraj post not just because I agree with him, but because this time I didn’t have to be the anti-generalization police.
annisat, your story sounds very interesting! Best of luck to you as you begin your lives together, and I hope to hear more about your experiences.
I’d post more, but I’m on my way out for a long weekend…play nice while I’m gone, haha!
By: D on June 20, 2008
at 12:19 pm
I know that I’ve been one of those guilty of responding to posts like those made by BGS with the “Don’t say that, you’re generalizing! whoop-de-doo,” as CA put it. I’m sorry if any responses I’ve made have bothered anyone, or contributed to anyone’s decision to stop posting their thoughts here. I’ve seen some really interesting, provocative, and thoughtful perspectives offered here by many different people, and I like the diversity of opinions on this site. I think perhaps why I, and Sooraj, and D and others try to make these points is that sometimes, the negativity toward Indian culture can get a little overwhelming here.
This is not to discount or invalidate the negative experiences that some have had encountering the Indian culture through their personal relationships. Having not had such an experience, I can’t imagine how hurtful it must be to have your significant others’ parents reject you. If I had been in a similar circumstance, I might have reacted with just as much anger, and I can see how such an experience would tend to put you off on Indian culture in general.
However, I don’t think those who want to point out that not all people have had such experiences, or that not all Indians do X, Y, or Z, or that not all aspects of Indian culture are negative are doing so because they want to gloss over the negative aspects, or that they want everything to be a lovefest all the time. I’m fully aware that there are aspects of Indian culture that are negative, and that there may be generalizations and stereotypes that ARE legitimate (not universal, perhaps, but certainly prevalent). I wonder, however, what’s the purpose of making these generalizations, or pointing out the negative aspects of Indian culture? Are we trying to change things? Are we trying to examine Indian culture objectively, and understand where some of these negative trends may come from? And what would be the purpose of gaining such an understanding? I’m not sure.
I know that I found this site because I was looking for information on planning an intercultural wedding, and I’ve stayed and commented because I’ve found such valuable and interesting posts on all aspects of being involved with someone from a different culture. (BTW, I haven’t been commenting a lot recently because our wedding is coming up in two weeks, and consequently, I’ve been insanely busy!) But I’ve found some of the negativity toward Indian culture somewhat off-putting, though certainly understandable. My experience with my fiance and his family and Indian culture in general has been almost uniformly positive – but that’s just my experience, which shapes my perceptions. Some people have clearly had the opposite experience with Indians and the Indian culture in general – and that’s their experience that has shaped their perceptions. Both perceptions are equally valid, but I think it’s also important to always keep in mind that neither are representative of Indians or Indian culture. How could they be? Culture is a complex thing, with many different and sometimes contradictory facets. The best we can do is to try to understand the negative, and appreciate the positive, and decide what works for each of us, as individuals.
By: mocroidh on June 20, 2008
at 5:54 pm
I’m on the vacation Nightmare on Elm Street, and I’m grabbing a few sane moments on the computer in the hotel lobby. Couldn’t resist reading here, and I have 2 comments.
#1. Mocroidh (congratulations on the upcoming wedding!) and D, I agree with a lot of things you and others have said here, but I’m rejecting the statements you’ve made re: this site being “overwhelmingly negative”. This is simply not the case. If you read through our archives, our personal lives and stories are very positive (now, at least), and we rarely post negative stuff, unless you consider CBC’s posts on the Annaprasana thing and the “ship your kid to India” to make this site overwhemingly negative. In which case I guess we just can’t agree.
In reality, this site was a personal diary for me and CBC, and it wasn’t until all the people began commenting that some of the comment threads went downhill. But if you read our actual posts, they are not doom and gloom. So I don’t get that at all.
#2. It floors me that there are complete strangers out in cyberland who feel the need to police us. Really – what’s the deal with that? There are a lot of blogs that I find tasteless, boring, stupid, or flat-out vile and wrong. But I just don’t visit them. I don’t police them, or try to “correct the atmosphere” of their blog. I get the feeling from several comments on here that we are being policed purely for that reason.
And that makes me wonder. Why does anyone care? Are we threatening in some way? I haven’t checked our page rankings (because I don’t care) but are we some sort of google powerhouse that is freaking everyone out? (I highly doubt it. lol) It’s not like Americans are all reading this blog and forming their entire opinion of Indian culture based on a couple of our posts! Good grief. If people are that stupid, our blog is probably the least of their problems.
By: chineseambassador on June 21, 2008
at 1:52 am
And that makes me wonder. Why does anyone care? Are we threatening in some way?
The answers to both are, as CBC implied earlier, We don’t and You’re not. Quite simply, you invited a dialogue by allowing for comments and that’s what you’re getting. It’s not that you’re insanely popular; it’s more that people might think posts/comments of the variety from BGS reflect someone uninformed about the other perspective and all-too-eager to generalize without sufficient data. (As an aside, personally, I’m shocked, and, frankly, disbelieve, she has a master’s in statistics; if it’s from Cal, it’s changed altogether too much since I went to school there because her comments about statistics reflect a deplorable level of understanding of Stat 101, let alone what Katie was talking about).
As for the idea that you “reject” the idea this site is overwhelmingly negative because people haven’t read your archives in sufficient depth, most of us are ignorant of your life histories and take the snippet we see at face value. I come upon your site every once in a while, see what’s there in a post as a self-contained entry rather than a snippet of someone’s lifelong online revelations, and respond accordingly. From this superficial perspective, I agree, your site, which includes others beyond just yourselves, seems overwhelmingly negative.
It’s especially ironic to me that you proudly talk about not wanting to “put asterisks” about generalizations when you talk about the negative aspects of other cultures yet, when people apply this same generalization sans asterisks to *your* site and posts and label it as negative, you seem to be up in arms. Hypocritical at best, I’d say…
By: Macman on June 22, 2008
at 9:16 am
MacMan: I think that’s where the term “overwhelmingly” is a bit much. You just said yourself, it’s a superficial perspective and you’re only reading it from time to time taking individual posts as a snippet – not as a whole. Which is what a large number of people do (probably most). I find it odd that you or anyone else doing the same thing could label the site “overwhelmingly” anything with any authority. That particular post you’re reading that day? Sure. Other than that? No. Which of course seems to be part of the problem here – it doesn’t stop people from labeling anything.
And I’d hardly say CA seemed “up in arms.” Confused at the hubbub at best, as well as to why anyone would want to waste valuable time policing someone’s personal web log. I think she was confused as well as to why anyone thinks the site is so negative, not having taking into account yet what you pointed out – that many/most people just take each individual post at face value. Which is all I thought Sooraj was doing this time, and makes sense. That may not be how BGS was taking it though (or Sooraj taking her comments) because people are not logical computers.
The site is exactly as MacMan says – snippets and thoughts from past and present on a very limited subject matter. It’s not a whole of anything and hardly representative of any person or who they really are. It’s very niche subject matter – when you talk only of a niche, that’s going to tick some people off from time to time because people have strong opinions on their niches of choice. They’re going to form (usually misguided) opinions of the authors and commenters based on whatever persona they’ve assigned to that person, which is solely based on the limited amount of information that person has *chosen* to present.
It’s rather ridiculous really. And at this point, much ado about nothing.
Moving on now…
By: colorblindcupid on June 22, 2008
at 5:43 pm
I’d say those are fair points raised by colorblindcupid. Perhaps “overwhelmingly” is a bit hyperbolic (and definitely subjective) and “up in arms” also seems too strong a description of chineseambassador’s reaction. But it certainly is hypocritical at best to recoil at people’s generalizations of this site based on their experience of just a few posts when that’s exactly what some people on here are doing about whole cultures based on the experiences of just a few people.
By: Macman on June 22, 2008
at 6:14 pm
I think it’s ridiculous that anyone would suggest statistics is the appropriate method for understanding the issues we talk about. Maybe Macman and his little buddies need to take a few more humanity classes. For instance, Philospohy might help.
What we have here resembles a forum for free discussion of societal issues, and the appropriate tool in my opinion is rigorous logic, open-mindedness to counterarguments, and the ability to suppress immature, knee-jerk reactions to poeple who disagree with you in order to hear their point and build on it in a constructive way. That is one of the main purposes of education, but so few people here seem to have mastered it that I find it useless to post. The knee jerk reactions and trite, thoughtless statements lack any nuance. I’d love it if someone other than CA and CBC said something thoughtful that made me think, that helped me become more nuanced, but they don’t. I certainly am willing to listen to thoughtful disagreement, but you guys don’t provide that. You come in with your own views and can’t stand that someone has strong opinions otherwise. You wish you could just dismiss them as too offensive, or too ignorant, but really, they are just different than yours. Please, add a story that contradicts me but that also explains my perception. Contribute to our understanding. Help us become more nuanced by recognizing that we have to take into account many details to near the truth. But coming in here knowing you’re right and disrespecting people with other views rather than talking in a mature way with them is puerile and pointless.
I also think the commentors fail to appreciate the difference between hateful negativity and critical evaluation. Yes, I’m very critical of what I’ve seen of other cultures. I’m critical of most things I see, and I’m very critical of how I myself live my life. You’d see all that if this were a blog on another topic. I generally don’t buy into things other consider normal, and I am critical of most “strong cultures” because I think people should be more free and independent to set their own standards than a strong culture environment allows them to be. I see culture as dogma. But I’ve always been open to anyone with something smart or thoughtful to say about why they disagree. I’ve never gotten that, though. I just get people who complain about the un-p.c. critical points, who see culture as good and worthy of acceptance because it is.
Also, realize that without generalizing, no insightful critical works would have ever been written. In the 1950s and 1960s, the roles surrounding gender could be construed as culture. They were strongly held beliefs that were imbued with a moral nature. Do you think Betty Friedan didn’t offend some housewives by writing The Feminine Mystique? Don’t you think some of them were horrified by her assertions and critical view of how they lived? But didn’t she have a point anyway, even though she was inevitably wrong in some cases? Now, it seems normal to us, and many of us agree with her. At the time, remember it wasn’t that way. She was an iconoclast, she outraged people with her views, and yes, she generalized. But good things came out of it. She was critical, not hateful.
I think to say the site is overwhelmingly negative is to lack an appreciation for thoughtful analysis. It’s liking saying Julia Roberts in Mona Lisa smile was too negative. To some, no doubt she was. But she also challenged popular views in a thoughtful way, and that is valuable, whether the speech personally offends you or not. We don’t have the right to not be offended. We have the right to be free from hateful, oppression-advocating speech. But the point of free speech is to enable critical, possibly negative, unpopular thoughts so that society can advance.
Political correctness is just a notion used by a totalitarian state and its advocates to suppress unpopular views that would upset the status quo. So please, don’t be the fascist policing others’ views. If you express your own, I won’t invalidate them; I will try to build on them or thoughtfully disagree, and, if I were planning to keep posting, I’d ask the same of you. I think this is how you should treat each other.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on June 22, 2008
at 7:31 pm
And although I think MacMan’s points above fit exactly my description of thoughtless, reactionary posts more intended to be inflammatory than helfpul to anyone’s understanding, I’m happy to give you a chance to explain. To make a point with any insight, you’ll have to be more specific.
Please, tell me what deplorable lack of understanding have I on the topics of Stat 101? And in the meantime, what have you assumed my null hypotheses are? And, given you suggest understanding of Statistics will solve all ills, when did you decide I was trying to prove something about Indians at large? Please, tell me what I am missing here.
My guess is that your assumptions are wrong, and that is why you fail to notice that Statistics is irrelevant to this discussion.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on June 22, 2008
at 7:47 pm
“some people on here are doing about whole cultures based on the experiences of just a few people.”
I don’t know if you mean me included, but uh, almost 13 years later and as a member of the Indian community where I live, I think my experience is a bit larger than “just a few people.” And that’s quite a generalization yourself, assuming you know just how much experience people on here have, considering you just admitted you basically know only what you read in a particular post on a particular day.
I don’t know what other “cultures” you are referring to either (plural? I didn’t know we talked about that many cultures on here).
By: colorblindcupid on June 22, 2008
at 8:29 pm
I don’t know what other “cultures” you are referring to either (plural?
For colorblindcupid, last I remember, there were other cultures than just Indian being discussed here. Or is chineseambassador’s Ang also Indian? Or did you just forget that Indian culture would be singular and the addition of one more culture (e.g., Chinese) would make it (wait for it)… plural? And that’s without taking into account the different Indian cultures (or are you thinking that North Indians are the same as South Indians and all of those are the same as Pakistanis?).
As for BGS, I’ll let her own words formulate both the questions and the answers (just from this post alone):
Political correctness is just a notion used by a totalitarian state
and its advocates to suppress unpopular views that would upset the
status quo. So please, dont be the fascist policing others views. If you
express your own, I wont invalidate them; I will try to build on them or
thoughtfully disagree
What we have here resembles a forum for free discussion of
societal issues
Some of your very thoughtful and considerate disagreements:
read around some more and stop bothering us with nonsense comments like this
I hope this is clear, and that you will take yourself elsewhere
But coming in here knowing you’re right and disrespecting people
with other views rather than talking in a mature way with them is
puerile and pointless.
Which is certainly proven here:
I do intend to insult manipulative people
I think its ridiculous that anyone would suggest statistics is the
appropriate method for understanding the issues we talk about.
Preceded by this:
Were very obviously talking about averges(sic)
it stifles dialogue about real correlations
But that is fine. Honestly, this is it for me.
Followed by about three more posts, of course…
By: Macman on June 22, 2008
at 9:52 pm
This has to be the same person who blasted onto this site on the “Ship your kid to India” post, and talked down to us like we were stupid uneducated “moms”. When I posted some research that backed up our own fears/issues with that particular Indian custom, MacMan disappeared.
Now he/she is back, to reassure us that nobody cares what we think and we’re not “popular” at all, and he/she is being helpful by pointing out all of our supposed hypocrisy.
ROTFLMAO.
I need a new hobby.
CBC. I’ll hit you with an email later. I just got in and the van is a disaster, the fridge is empty, and I need to calm down before I write more.
By: chineseambassador on June 23, 2008
at 12:17 am
“would make it (wait for it)… plural? And that’s without taking into account the different Indian cultures (or are you thinking that North Indians are the same as South Indians and all of those are the same as Pakistanis?).”
I was asking seriously (other than the obvious Indian and Chinese) since you suddenly seemed to know WAY more about my site that you previously indicated (what cultures we discuss, how much experience posters have with all these supposed cultures we discuss…). And since you’re admittedly reading only random posts, perhaps you don’t know that we’ve routinely discussed the differences between North and South (and I can’t recall talking about Pakistanis, but perhaps they were mentioned at some point in the past year). But I don’t think that’s it – I just think you were being a total smart ass after I (politely) called you on assuming you had any knowledge of anyone’s personal experience here, especially after admitting that you read the site randomly and superficially. And not surprisingly, you had nothing to say to that, but decided to go the smart ass route instead.
By: colorblindcupid on June 23, 2008
at 12:24 am
I’m not sure I ever indicated the depth of my knowledge about your site except to say it’s cursory; and even a cursory examination easily reveals more than just an Indian cultural topic. I never presumed to have personal knowledge of anyone’s experience; the only thing I pointed out was the hypocrisy of recoiling at people generalizing about your site based on a few posts whilst advocating generalizing about cultures based on the experience of just a few people. I thought the point was plain and I have no issues with anyone generalizing as they please. When you re-iterated what I said, I didn’t think I’d have to repeat or acknowledge your re-iteration. I’m sorry if I misunderstood your query earlier but, if you’d like me to, I’d be happy to do so: what would you like me to elaborate upon or clear up?
By: Macman on June 23, 2008
at 12:41 am
since when are we generalizing based on the experiences of “a few people”? For real. This stuff is common knowledge, even for those of us who haven’t lived it. That’s why http://www.badindiangirl.com is so dang funny.
Ok. I’m too tired to continue this right now, but as Scarlett O’Hara was wont to say “Tomorrow is another day!”
By: Chineseamabassador on June 23, 2008
at 2:08 am
So I’m back from my vacation (had a lovely time visiting G’s extended family and celebrating the engagement of his cousin to a white girl
) and had a little time to think. I decided that I’m going to stop posting for the time being, as well. I’m getting busier at work, and this is taking up way too much time and energy. I would like to say before I go, though, that my problem was never with CBC or even CA, really. Both of you seem to have accepted the differences between your spouse’s culture/upbringing and your own (even if you don’t quite understand or agree with them), and even embraced them to some extent; this is clear in your posts. I think the main source of negativity on here is with BGS and her constant condemnation of Indian culture, which is, I gather from her posts, only based on her interactions with her fiance’s family. Her presence in the comments has really marred the overall tone of the site and, IMHO, set off most of the arguments. I realize that she has had a bad experience, but I still don’t agree with her constant need to blame those experiences on the culture rather than the individuals. Anyhow, I have to cut this short because I have to get to a meeting, but I wish you all the best. Bye!
By: D on June 23, 2008
at 9:03 pm