I was watching HGTV the other day (naturally), and I saw an episode of House Hunters that I’ve just got to write about. I hope some nice Indian girls will stop by and give me their true thoughts on this matter. (Incidentally this show is hosted by Suzanne Whang, who I think is cute but Ang calls her “Bobble Head” – you’ve got to see an episode to get it I think. This could be a whole ‘nother post.)
OKAY. So setting the scene…
Nice young Indian couple are introduced, and it is explained they are looking for their first home. They interview the couple on their current living arrangements, what they are looking for in a house, what they hope for, etc etc. WELL.
Right off the bat they say “We’re living in our parent’s basement”, and they get some good shots of said basement. (I will refer to them from here on out as Indian girl = IG and Indian Boy = IB for ease of typing.) It is clear from the set-up of the episode that this is IB’s parents’ house.
Right away I am studying their faces while they describe this situation.
Indian Boy literally waxes on and on about how fabulous it is to live with his mommy right upstairs, because she cooks all his favorite food for him, he doesn’t have to pay rent and can save money, etc etc. (Here’s where I get my barf bag and begin watching his wife’s eyes.)
Indian girl has a decidedly stiff look on her face. Like, very stiff. She says “hmmm. It will be nice to have space of our own”. YEAH I BET.
They then pan the camera to IB again, where he again waxes on about the glories of living in his mom’s basement, but then concedes that it’s “time to get a home of our own”.
I’m wondering if there were some fights about this before the decision was made, but I’m speculating. I cannot tell from IG’s face what is going on because her eyes look dead. (But then, she’s been living with her mother-in-law so I’m not surprised she looks like the life has been sucked out of her with a straw.)
IB then explains that they “won’t be moving too far away” from mommy and daddy. (Again I reach for the barf bag.)
IG is silent on this point.
By the end of the episode they find a house that’s not too far away from the parents, but I’m left with SO MANY BURNING QUESTIONS. So I’ll just leave them here, in the hopes that some Indian girls will stop by and post their true feelings on this matter.
#1. Do good Indian girls always agree to this kind of set-up (living in your in-laws’ house)? (as opposed to bad Indian girls?)
#2. Can you screw your husband while his mommy is upstairs in the kitchen making him his favorite curry?
#3. Are Americans just super-independent and nutty about living seperately from parents? Are we the only culture that thinks this is notsofun?
#4. Are girls in this arrangement secretly loathing the in-laws? Do you ever think about “accidentally” burning down the house while everyone is at the temple, so you can go get a 1-bedroom apartment?
I know that much is made about Americans being so individualist, and how Indian culture is so much more family-oriented/collectivist/it takes a village, etc. But part of me thinks this is just a show. I don’t care what culture you’re from – no girl wants to have sex with hubby while his mom is upstairs with the Bollywood cranked up (so she can’t hear the headboard hitting the wall)…I would have nightmares of my MIL busting down the door to see if she can “help”.
And now I need the brain bleach. shudder!
Didn’t anyone find this as funny as I did?
Saresh’s parents wanted us to live in their basement. The PROMISED they’d not intrude – we’d never see them. Riiiight. Why would we live in the basement then?
I wouldn’t even put my home office in the basement (I’m sucking up a valuable spare bedroom for this purpose!). I feel like I’m in a cave downstairs, even if it’s a walk-out. I can’t live in one.
By: colorblindcupid on May 28, 2008
at 6:25 pm
we’re too busy discussing religion, CBC. Who can think of sex in their in-laws basement at a time like this?
By: chineseambassador on May 28, 2008
at 6:28 pm
We’ve done naughty things in my in-laws’ basement. They weren’t home, though.
By: D on May 28, 2008
at 6:51 pm
ROFL!
And this is only slightly related because CA’s post mentions HGTV – I have to share my blues today. So we’re having all this landscaping done and I have been so excited because our front and back yards were HORRIBLE. We had 3 giant dead trees in our back yard (someone actually stopped by our house a while back to see if they could cut one of them down!), and all these overgrown ugly shrubs in front and back.
Today I feel so bad – we came home this afternoon and all the bushes are gone, and this fence that was in the back that had this ivy I hate growing through it. There are all these displaced birds. This mourning dove is sitting on a landscaping rock in the front where the hideous evergreen she used to live in was. She’s just sitting there not moving, like she doesn’t know what to do. And I seriously hope there were no eggs in the nest (I think they’ve all hatched, but now I’m worried!). We also ousted some Cardinals in the back (whom I love, but I also love the doves), finches, and a pair of mated mourning doves that lived in the fence ivy. They’ve made a nest there each spring since we’ve been in this house and I feel like they’re our bird family. I have a feeder for them and the Cardinals and finches that lived in the back. I hope they don’t all go away.
I feel so mean – like a big nature killer! We’re putting stuff back in, but nothing like what we had – nothing nest-worthy.
By: colorblindcupid on May 28, 2008
at 7:07 pm
Honey. that’s what birdhouses are for. Get a kit and build one with dd.
I know the feeling though, I’m always looking out for the birdies. They are so sweet.
By: chineseambassador on May 28, 2008
at 7:20 pm
And, for my final post for a while, CA, this was ABSOULTELY HILARIOUS. I can’t wait to see IGs’ future comments as they find their way to the blog. Such excellent questions!
And so agreed on the sex. Depending on how much you hated the in-laws, it seems like you could really make them quite miserable with loud sex, mentioning of sex, clearly stealing away to have sex. That said, my parents’ house is about 10k square feet and I still can’t get in the mood with my SO and I go for a visit, even if we are so far away from them they’d never hear or notice a thing. Ew.
Hopefully this post was understandable. Of course, as I said, should anyone chime in with “Not all Indian parents would be tortured by the sounds of sex,” or, “Not all Indian Girls hate their in-laws,” or “White parents hate the sounds of sex, too,” I will definitely not be deigning to comment and acknowledge obvious statements that I believe most people understand to be implied.
Truth be told, we can generalize. Social science is all about truthful generalities. The thing is that it’s about an average. So you expect to find exceptions. That doesn’t mean correlations, and interesting cause-and-effect relationships don’t exist at a highly significant level. But I don’t expect everyone to “get” this, either.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 28, 2008
at 8:11 pm
i posted to you on the other thread BGS. I think you’re just too darn independent of other people’s emotions. LOL
“White parents hate the sounds of sex, too”
I’m trying not to spray my diet coke on the screen.
By: chineseambassador on May 28, 2008
at 8:40 pm
Lol, thanks, CA. Were I not now in social science, perhaps I’d be less comfortable talking about tendencies of groups too. “A tendency toward” or “a correlation between,” say, ritualism and degree of hypocrisy is different than “All Hindus are” but I can see how it’s not that obvious of a distinction to some people.
I will not be a stranger! I think I just need a break (and y’all probably need a break from me!). I get so carried away thinking and talking about these things that I just get annoyed when I think people don’t get my point or aren’t stopping to really think about something I’m trying to provoke *new* thought about. The only thing worse than no thought is cliche and vacuous *old* thought (”you can’t stereotype!”). I don’t mean to be a beast to D, either. I think this is a general frustration from posting too much.
I will say that I think part of this is the fault of my dear academia. Sometimes I think we are in the business of giving less thoughtful people shortcuts to appreciating complexity. Instead of teaching people how to recognize both the value of and the limits of their knowledge and certainty, we emphasize uncertainty and the dangers of overestimating it, to the point that everyone claims to know nothing in fear of being accused of overclaiming.
In the meantime, cheers to this hilarious and utterly fabulous post and good luck to CBC and the precious birdhouse idea! That was very cute. Let us all aim for a true, if provocative, appreciation of complexity and I will look forward to reading the posts, if not commenting for a few weeks.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 28, 2008
at 9:26 pm
Well, I could not be getting it, too, because I have a small kid so I usually read/scan at warp speed and then type a response just as quickly.
Having been accused of overclaiming repeatedly on this site, and frankly sick of defending my position when I think it’s obvious that’s never what I mean, I have no doubt that I’m skittish of saying anything that’s perceived to be in that vein. I just got sick of having that argument a LONG time ago and just want to write my posts and have fun conversations and some thoughtful ones without feeling like they turn into a “you’re vilifying Indian people” witch hunt. Anyone who reads the blog past one post can see it’s obvious nothing is further from the truth.
But somehow I end up walking on eggshells sometimes anyway because I just don’t want to have to defend things like why I think it’s insanity to ship your kid to India. One of the main purposes of the blog is to talk about things I sometimes struggle with in being in an intercultural relationship with someone from another part of the world, Eastern culture free with marriage.
None of that means I necessarily understood what you were saying this time though – eek! Too much introspection makes my brain hurt! Enjoy your break (unless you can’t resist commenting LOL), because the good Lord knows I need one repeatedly! Just can’t give it up though…
By: colorblindcupid on May 28, 2008
at 10:36 pm
Thanks, CBC! It wasn’t you; seriously I may just be tense from work this week and annoyed with myself for typing too much for anyone on here to realistically read and take in. My SO gives me a hard time for processing thoughts/emotions way too fast for him to handle, so I think I did that here too.
I think it’s b.s. you have to walk on eggshells on your own blog, but I hear you on tiring of the drama.
Anyway, I am off for a trip to the east coast soon but I will talk to you guys soon! Whatever happened with Doc, btw? Hope he and Nina are ok…
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 29, 2008
at 12:19 am
LOL HILARIOUS!!!
CA – u r right, no matter which culture u r from the whole in law’s business is not truly welcomed.
However, given the traditions and culture we Indians come from alot of them have NO CHOICE but to live with the inlaws in the NEXT ROOM fget the basement ! In cities like HK, U’d be lucky to have your rooms 10 feet away.
Yet, that has changed recently over time, many couples opt for living seperately on their own etc, many of the guys expect to have their ‘own’ space without the whole melodrama unfolding like an Indian TV soap opera right infront their eyes after a long day’s work.
So it’s really lucky if the GUY is understanding enough to not be a total MAMMA’S BOY!
By: Rashmi on May 30, 2008
at 2:23 pm
Sorry for wordy comment -
I have been visiting this blog for a while and like it a lot. This one by CA is hilarious and her questions made me laugh out loud inspite of me being at work.
I am a 25 yr old Indian woman, married to another Indian and we both are living in the US. I have lived in the US for about 8 years,now. It is interesting to know, through this blog, how people of the West feel about and react to Indian way of life. I just wanted to share my thoughts on this topic and expose the other side of the coin. My thoughts pertain to the community I belong, the people I have seen in my life, the ways of my family, the way I have been brought up etc. So, if there is anything someone disagrees with, then that is understandable. My thoughts do not have any inter-racial element in it so this may seem a bit strange to CA, CBC and others.
My in-laws and my parents live in India. So that tells you I don’t currently live with my in-laws. But I will be, if we move back to India which we will, eventually. Living with parents has a very different sense to us. For the most, it is the other way around – Parents living with their son — the son supporting his parents emotionally, financially or both. Even though, the son brings his newly wed to his parent’s home, there is this sense of mutual support between the parents & the son. It is considered as living as a family rather than the son living with his parents.
Ideally speaking, indians believe that their son is the one who would remain their son forever and their daughter,too but the difference is that the daughter,after she gets married becomes the daughter [in-law] for a different family. That doesn’t make them love their sons more than their daughters, obviously. They also treat their daughter-in-law like another daughter who is the replacement for their lost daughter(not “lost” exactly, but you know what I mean). In literal terms, it appears as though they are trading daughters but it has a subtler emotion tag attached to it. Well, thats whats on the text book. Practically, they miss their daughter like crazy and find faults with their daughter-in-law. But thats the part and parcel of married life without which there is no spice [!].
An Indian father and a mother support their son/daughter for their school and college or grad school until he/she starts to earn his/her own money. There is no concept of the son/daughter moving out when they become adults. It is meaningless for a single son to live in a 1 bed room apartment when his parents are living in a mansion in the same town. Even if the son has a job elsewhere, he would refer to the mansion as his home and would visit his parents every weekend. Thats how it is. Apart from supporting their son/daughter until graduation (and sometimes even after), they spend all their savings to get their daughter[or son] married. Like you have seen and noticed, Indians tend to be family-oriented and like to have socially active life. The standing example of which is inviting the whole village for a birthday party, although, that might seem to the westerners as over-doing it. You can imagine how much it would cost to invite a village and feed them.
So, it rather becomes a thank-you gesture for the son to support his parents then after. Ofcourse, amidst all this, we are forgetting the daughter-in-law who walks in to a whole new place where she has to screw her husband while his mom sleeps in the next room. It is weird but not as weird for an Indian as a westerner would think. we Indians [atleast a majority, I would think] are used to living in a joint family and were brought up in the same home as our uncles and aunts and their children. So, a closed room is all the privacy one can ask for and one would expect. Again, here, I am talking about a girl who is born and brought up in India, amidst a large indian family.
While the daugher-in-law spends her life complaining about her in-laws, she would expect that her parents are supported by her brother. She wouldn’t want her sister-in-law to think of her parents as nuissance and move out leaving them to live alone in their old age. In an Indian society, people think high of a son who supports his parents [by living in the same house as them, ofcourse] and the same feeling of respect is held for a daughter-in-law who has not only shifted families but is taking care of her in-laws in their old age. Such a scenario is considered healthy even though a lot of buts and ifs are overlooked. But this has become a thing of the past. Over time [or as the result of westernisation, may be], people have realised that it is fair a for a man and a woman to get married and start a new family of their own rather than make it appear like the bride moves in with the bridegroom’s parents. We don’t have social security or medicare in India. If the parents run out of their savings [which is the case mostly than not], it is very crucial for their children to support them. Well, the “support” need not equal living together but living together would mean the highest support.
I know I am missing a major point here – Independence. Thats what lacks in this system but I guess we don’t miss it that much probably because it was absent for the whole time. I had the independence of choosing my career and so did my siblings. But some of the indian sons/daughters didn’t. May be another thing of the past but not in entirety.
As much as I’d like to live independent without the interference of a dominating old woman who makes me feel like a first grader, I respect my husband’s want to take care of his parents financially and emotionally. I would expect my brother to do the same with my parents. So a good Indian girl would probably have complaints all her life [who doesn't? one would have even if one lives far away from in-laws, though lot less] but would still live with her inlaws. It is fun in it’s own way.
By: Mayuri on May 30, 2008
at 7:23 pm
Thank you! I think that’s the best explanation I’ve heard on this yet! And it does make sense – it’s foreign to me, but it makes sense.
The idea that the daughters are “given” to another family but the son remains in the original family unit – that’s a very old way of life that is common throughout the world, China too. So I get that. (weeee patriarchy!)
It’s just nice to know that these good Indian girls have the exact same feelings on the matter that I would – namely, I am not thrilled at the idea of living with my in-laws and it would make me very uncomfortable.
But as you said, when it becomes financially necessary, you have to support your parents. And that’s something that is common everywhere (even to independent-crazy Americans!)
thanks for coming out of lurkdom. For a while I thought no Indian girls read this blog and it was just all the white girls trying to date outside their culture. lol
By: chineseambassador on May 30, 2008
at 7:48 pm
I was really hoping that someone like Mayuri would come along!! Thank you for sharing your perspective. Im sure it wouldnt have gone over too well had I brought up these points, lol, because I am not Indian.
But, I see things in a similar way to Mayuri. There are always complaints and adjustments made when you live with ANYONE including your spouse and children. Some just see it as part of life. And like she says, everyone has complaints and everyone yearns for some independance!
Obviously, there are extreme cases of DILs being mistreated, and all that. But every situation is not a nightmare.
Sometimes its good to take off the “American tinted glasses” and see things another way.
By: Mirchi on May 30, 2008
at 8:37 pm
oh – I hope Mayuri is still reading because I thought of another question I really wanted to ask…
In the case of Indians living in India, your explanation made sense and I understood the perspective.
But in the case of Indians in the US, like this young couple that was on House Hunters – is it a little different?
Because the parents in this situation were not needing support – they were very well-to-do (as most Indians in the US are.) They were young, wealthy, and didn’t *need* their kids to live with them.
In the same sense, the kids were not destitute, although the husband did mention “saving money” as one perk of living with them.
So my question is, when Indians live here in the US, and have the wealth that affords them options and choices, do they often choose to live separately from their parents? Part of me thinks they must, since this couple on House Hunters obviously did, and as you said, no daughter-in-law is necessarily thrilled to live with her in-laws all the time.
I know I wear “American-tinted” glasses, but it seems like immigrants to America often seem to don them too, when given the opportunity. ?
By: chineseambassador on May 30, 2008
at 10:12 pm
OMG, how hilarious. I think I saw this episode! IB just thought it was all hunkydory to live in his parents basement…IG was pretending it was kinda-okay, but no really.. she really WASN’T impressed LOL
By: ara0062 on May 31, 2008
at 4:51 am
I don’t have anything to add as such but to say this entry has been a real insight. I guess the problems we have in understanding it is because our culture trains us in our line of thought to think certian things are normal, where as other cultures constrast that line of thought dramatically.
I asked my partner about it, he says that he knows what when his parents get older he knows what is expected of him from his parents, ie. supporting them emotionally and financially etc.
I actually kind of like the idea of it being a “thank you gesture”.
By: englishgirl on May 31, 2008
at 10:16 am
Regarding living with the in-laws, from my experiences with indians living in the US as well as in india, if the couple/family can financially support it, the married couple usually moves out within 2-3 years. Also, I’ve also noticed that indian girls usually LIE about wanting to live with the in-laws, especially if a sweet green card is offered in the transaction- such as an ABCD boy marrying a fob girl…. the girl generally ALWAYS moves out within 2-3 years.
I’ve also noticed that the communal living situation can be good in cases where arranged marriages are especially incompatible- it’s almost like the parents act as a social buffer for the individuals in the marriage so they don’t get so lonely at home.
By: kristen on May 31, 2008
at 12:13 pm
Couple of things before my real post – had a long end of the week at work, so I’m trying to catch up. Sorry for being all sunshine and roses and PC, but I do feel the need to step in sometimes when I think things are turning too negative. IMHO, these cultural things we whiteys see as crazy are what made our SO’s what they are. So, while we might not agree with all of them, I can’t view them in such a negative light, since without them, I wouldn’t have gotten my wonderful husband. Also, because my experience with the people of this culture has never been negative (all of my conflicts with my in-laws have been equivalent to the conflicts that any non-intercultural couple has with their in-laws), I don’t have feelings of resentment toward specific people that color my feelings for the culture. So, I have had a much easier time accepting the differences and rolling with them.
Anyway – Mayuri, that was a great post. So much good insight there! I recently mentioned to G that if she agrees, I’d love for my grandmother to live with us when we have kids so we can have a little bit of extra help with them and because her situation right now isn’t the best and I think she would be better off with us. He immediately said OK without even thinking about it, which surprised me for a second (what guy wants to live with his wife’s grandmother?!) before I thought about where he was coming from. Even though he was born here and hasn’t experienced it himself, the idea of relatives living with you is still a completely normal concept for him, and I’m grateful for that.
By: D on June 1, 2008
at 12:51 pm
D, I think your perspective is just as valid as anyone else’s here. I just don’t think we need sunshine “police”, that’s all.
The reason for that is because IMO, conversation gets extremely curtailed when we can’t say what we’re really thinking, because we have to be “positive” just for the sake of being PC or something.
If I hadn’t written this post, and what I was *really* thinking about this episode of House Hunters, Mayuri wouldn’t have come out of lurkdom to post that.
And I have to have email conversations with some people around here because they don’t think they can say what they are really thinking (because the police will jump in to shut down the conversation). So I am prickly about it, sorry!
By: chineseambassador on June 1, 2008
at 2:27 pm
Thanks to all of you for accepting my response.
To answer CA’s question –
Things have been functioning in a certain way for ages – son living with his parents and the dil moving in with his family. I know a few of the financially independent parents who learnt, probably from their own experiences, that it is better for both parties if their son and dil live separately. But that is a HUGE change. It is hard to totally erase what has been in practise for a time so long. Did moving to the US, stop them from throwing extravagant parties for a simple family occasion? There are still people who haven’t come out of their old system, it doesn’t matter where they live. The financial indpendence is no longer the driving factor for living together for such people. They’ll never be completely emotionally independent. The mother would have found herself in the same situation when she got married – to move in with her in-laws. She probably wasn’t given a choice to live separately. She doesn’t necessarily realize that living together is a choice that her son and dil have to make and think of it as something that is supposed to happen that way – basically taking her for granted. This cannot be justified but is understandable from a psychological view point.
In my opinion, if there is unhappiness, which is different from general qualms, then there is no point in living together. If living in the same home is going to bring the roof down, then emotional support takes the back seat. Some woman can handle both the uptide and downtide in a relationship as strange as the one with her in-laws. It is, obviously, more challenging when you are living together. It is all about making it work, be it marriage or any other relationship. If the family is unable to keep up their respect for each other then the best way to make it work is for the son and dil to move out, even if the parents are entirely dependent on their son, irrespective of where they live. Financial support needn’t necessarily require them to live together. This is exactly what is happening in India, now a days. Some men try desperately to keep both his wife AND parents happy but the wife doesn’t care and gives up before even she starts to try.
I didn’t watch that particular episode of House Hunters [by the way, CA, I find Suzanne Whang cute, too
]. If I had, I am sure I would have guessed if or not the couple had a fight over moving out. lol. I do appreciate CA for posting her true thoughts and giving me a chance to respond with a positive note on my culture. Cheers!
By: Mayuri on June 2, 2008
at 9:37 pm
#1.
Honestly I don’t consider myself an “good indian girl” but I know of a few couples who were okay with this set up…why? So they could save up to buy a house after their lavish 600 person wedding.
#2.
Ew…helll no!
#3.
I’m glad that I’m part of the North American culture of living independently. It’s really nice that Indian parents want to support you when you are just starting out married life or finishing up grad school…but I definitely want to move out and be independent.
#4.
HAHAH
I think most indian girls either really get a long with their in laws or they hate them. I think in the past generation there was a real “loathing” for the inlaws, and everything was done out of respect for elders and husband. Indian girls were more innocent and pure. I think my generation are woman of the world with 1st and 2nd degrees climbing the ladder for the high power jobs. Life is so different from back then, but nothing is wrong with either!
By: lifeaccordingtobhanu on June 12, 2008
at 11:10 pm
Long post alert. I have to agree with Mayuri. I am Indian ( FOB – living here for 6 years, met my Indian wife here, how weird:).
To get to the point — Indians generally lived with their parents back in India because it was hard to get a place of their own. Renting an apartment, though common in the US, was much harder back in India. I know because my parents used to face a lot of problems finding one to fit my 3 siblings in one.
Also credit or financing to buy a house was non existant. My father saved $$(or Rs in case of India) for about 25+ years and built a house when he was about 5 years away from retirement. It took him 25 years to become a home owner from a renter. Things are easier now with better (read more open) economic situation. I think I will find it easier to buy a house/live away from my parents.
That brings me to the issue of care giving in their old age and personal security. Since we live in a remote part of India personal+home security is a constant worry. Healthcare is easier said than done. Social services are family-oriented in India.You son/daughter is your best bet in old age. Btw, we worry about my in-laws who live in the same situation as my parents.
Does it mean that my wife would like living with my parents when we return?. I think so. She would let me know otherwise:). I guess economics have a lot to do with contemporary Indian culture( not Hindu culture).
just my 0.02 cents:)
By: Chet on July 24, 2008
at 4:39 pm
BerkeleyGradStudent
Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou for not biting the politically correct bate. Yes, cultural corrolations CAN INDEED be drawn, without stereotyping every individual from the particular culture in question.
And this post is related to the comment I made elsewhere about the Freudian, Oedipul relationship between Desi moms and their sons. I just didn’t find this particular post in time. I’m late to your blog… just found it today.
First of all, most Indians, in India anyway, do not make alot of noise during sex. I don’t know if this is because they cannot, due to living in such close proximity to other family members, or because the quality of it is just not noise inducing. LOL.
My impression is that “quality orgasms” are just not a priority in India like they are here.
There’s alot to be said about traditional Indian culture and sexuality. Has anyone here ever been to India?
By: Curious Culturephile on December 7, 2008
at 4:58 am