I’ve been thinking recently how the issue of communication can become so messed up in an intercultural situation like mine was (Indian or any parents against their child marrying a white/non-Indian) – specifically with the in-laws and me and my own family.
At this point in my relationship with the in-laws, I feel like I know them – I know when MIL is hinting at something and how to decipher what she really means when she says one thing, but wants another. I know their personalities and the kind of good people that they are – I know their hearts better. I know their likes and dislikes and about a million topics that we can have an easy conversation on. We can discuss religion and food and gardening and shopping and shoes and jewelry and politics and Law and Order, and you get the picture. It’s nice and it’s easy.
Nothing could have been further from this situation when Saresh and I were engaged. Part of the fall out that occurred when his parents refused to accept me for 4+ years was that they never got to know me, and I never got to know them. By the time we got to the wedding, I had no idea how to talk to these people and they didn’t know what to make of me.
A variation of this scenario may occur in couples who just haven’t gotten to know their fiancé’s parents well due to things like geographic distance. However, this was different in that besides being in the same location (so we could see each other if they had consented), so much emotion had built up over that time for us – anger and stress on my part, as well as Saresh, and frustration and sadness for all of us. I know my parents weren’t thrilled either knowing how I had been treated. My mother was very worried about my future relationship with people who thus far had refused to acknowledge me, much less accept me.
Once Saresh’s parents had decided to accept the wedding was going to happen, they wanted to spend more time with me – especially after our wedding. But all those feelings on both sides got in the way of us really getting to know each other and developing the easy relationship we have now. MIL would say one thing and I would interpret it wrongly. I interpreted everything they said and did through the only lens of them I had, which was colored by 4 years of rejection of me and upsetting their son. That was a pretty cloudy lens.
Though Saresh would try to explain some things and I also had a strong desire to get to know them and be a part of their family, I couldn’t just make the feelings go away – which is where all that lost communication time took its toll. The early years of our marriage were tough for me in learning to relate to and getting to truly know Saresh’s parents. They couldn’t understand why we weren’t closer and I couldn’t understand why they didn’t get it. And it wasn’t just knowing their “but it wasn’t personal” argument – it was also not having been given the opportunity to know them and vice versa. It was being purposely prevented from developing that relationship for so long, which caused as much resentment as it did a communication problem later.
This is a situation where hindsight doesn’t provide any insight for me. I couldn’t force them to develop a relationship with me prior to our marriage – if I could have, I would have done it, obviously. I do know that I’m glad that despite my initial feelings, I stuck with getting to know them so that we could eventually develop the relationship that Saresh and I wanted. It may have been a few years after they liked, but at least it occurred. I know that’s not always the case, and I certainly understand why.
I know that time of mis- (and missed) communication was hard on them, but I think this is just one of those consequences of their behavior that they had to bear. It may seem selfish (or prideful?) to say, but I think they are lucky that they have the son they do, and that I was willing to work through that time and learn to communicate with them. Not everyone is going to be willing to do that and I don’t think the parents think about the unintended consequences like miscommunication (and no communication) that will occur because of their behavior.
They are lucky Saresh married you, out of all the white girls he could have picked. Because you’re right – some of us would have washed our hands of them. They may never have a clue how lucky they are, because Saresh could have married an extremely independent woman like BGS (not meaning this as an insult here) – who would have been perfectly fine with cutting them out of her life.
My mom gave me some good advice about this for when my kids are grown. She wasn’t even thinking about intercultural issues – she was just concerned with how we as parents should deal with our children if they want to marry someone we don’t like (regardless of the reason). She warned me flat out: “don’t even think about trying to guilt your kids into choosing you (the parent) over the potential spouse. You’ll lose that bet, and then forever have a pissed off daughter-in-law. You’re shooting yourself in the foot if you ever want to see your grandbabies.”
My mom never dealt with intercultural issues, but boy, was she right.
By: chineseambassador on May 27, 2008
at 1:01 am
You must have realized after marrying Saresh, that you did not just marry him , you married his entire family. MIL wants to have so much say in your life, right from attending functions to travel plans.
More than half the marriages in India are still at least partially arranged. So most girls don’t know they’re in laws and the next moment BOOM ! your a part of a family. The transition is really hard, it takes time to get to elders. Little kids and the guys cousins help a lot in such tricky moments.
Indian parents use the worst kind of emotional blackmail to get they’re kids in line. Kids are getting smarter and playing the card back on the parents. A game of tit for tat.
Also, what many people don’t realize is that parents eventually come around like Saresh, all the need to do is grow some balls.
By: 6mile on May 27, 2008
at 11:00 am
Loved the post, CBC! So why do you think they don’t realize the consequences of their communication choices? I think you’re so right, but I just wonder why. They assume they can win the power struggle and have a blank check to be forgiven? CA’s mother’s advice just seems so right on, and so sensible and obvious, to me that I just find it hard to imagine how someone could not think of that (and I find it even harder to forgive anyone who would). I mean, hello, isn’t karma a Hindu concept?
And no insult taken, CA (although it was kind of funny to read that). I think I’d be a great DIL to someone who treated me respectfully and didn’t try to power struggle with me, but when people power struggle with me, I shut that down right away, and I will admit to being a little vindictive, too. I’m sure part of my cutting them out is about restoring the sense of justice in my mind.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 27, 2008
at 9:06 pm
And, to be technically correct, I know karma is technically about rebirth in the next life, not immediate justice in the current life. I just figured the repercussions of unfairness and injustice, and just frankly lack of kindness would occur to them if they believed in the whole rebirth/karma thing.
When I was thinking about it yesterday, I realized that just a little bit of kindness on my SO’s family’s part would have gone a long way given how kind and patient I was to them at first despite how much I did not personally connect with or like them (I know I don’t talk about that much now, but yes, that happened, and that is probably why I have no regrets about acting so assertively now). To me, being kind to other people is just part of how we should all live life, all else equal. I don’t “get” how people could claim to be religious yet fail to act in any kind of principled way to another person. But it seems principles go by the wayside in Indian culture when it’s about controlling your son or daughter’s life…
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 27, 2008
at 9:12 pm
6mile getting spunky!
I think what’s sad is that even before we got married, I wanted to be a part of his family (knowing that was what I wanted for my married life), which was what hurt – that I actually wanted that, and they persisted in shutting me out.
BGS – My husband actually starts to laugh when he can see me start to form the words, “I just don’t understand why…” I have asked this phrase so many times it’s actually a joke between us now. We’ve talked about that before on here – how it’s odd to go from “get rid of her” to “she’s our daughter” and how they have no concept of why that’s an issue. My personal opinion is that it stems from 2 things:
1) They truly believe what they did wasn’t personal just because they didn’t mean it to be personal (regardless that it happened personally to me and they did injure me – but they don’t like to talk about that part); and
2) They feel they were doing the right thing for their son at the time. Doesn’t matter that the future turned out fabulous and he’s happier having made his own choices.
I believe they don’t ever make the connection that their actions have consequences like this post describes. Whatever happens is something of the current and has no bearing on their past behavior. And even if they do get it (because I know on our part Saresh told them OVER AND OVER why things were like they were), they pretend they don’t.
I got tired of trying to understand why because sometimes, when I really figure it out, the truth irritates or hurts.
There have been a few readers on here suffering with the same thing I did back then (in-laws suddenly all over them like family now that the marriage went through) with the exception of their husband feeling like all should be forgiven, too. I get why they’d want to try and force that on their spouse having just gone through potentially years of strife, but it just doesn’t work that way. I’m glad my husband pretty much kept mute about my grumbly standoffish self even when I know there were times he wanted go, “Snap out of it!” LOL
(CA, thanks
)
By: colorblindcupid on May 27, 2008
at 9:33 pm
Don’t your in-laws claim to be religious, too? I don’t mean to ask you to delve into it when the topic is just irritating, but I guess I’m just thinking that relative to the issues of principles and religion, what is consensus here:
(1) The throw them by the wayside and act however they want when it’s convenient or customary to them
(2) They’re blatant hypocrites but won’t admit it (which is related to 1, but let’s separate it just for fun)
(3) They have no real principles with respect to the broader world; the religion is just a bunch of b.s. rituals that to many people who “practice” it, it’s more dogma than substance.
I can’t decide which I think it is, but it has to be one of the three…perhaps a combo.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 28, 2008
at 3:46 am
I have no idea what Hinduism teaches as far as karma and treatment of others, but, perhaps they have a completely different idea of what constitutes “kind treatment of others” than we do.
Since we ARE looking at this from the perspective of a Judeo-Christian culture which views kindness as “do unto others as you would have done to you”, (regardless of whether you’re an atheist or whatever – your culture has likely affected this)…perhaps the Hindu belief system revolves around a different principle? (Karma does not seem like the same thing as the Golden Rule)
I have no idea!
By: chineseambassador on May 28, 2008
at 4:51 am
I’m not a Hindu scholar, but I think karma can be viewed as quite similar to the Golden Rule. It comes down to your actions/deeds affecting the outcome of this life and subsequent lives. So I would say that the way you treat others, which is an action, can also have an effect.
BTW, I’d like to point out the millions of people who call themselves Christian but also treat other people unkindly/disrespectfully. That’s human nature and it’s not unique to any particular culture or religion. It’s part of the human tendancy to distrust people who are not like yourself (whether it’s skin color, religion, upbringing, culture) until you get to know them better.
By: D on May 28, 2008
at 2:41 pm
“BTW, I’d like to point out the millions of people who call themselves Christian but also treat other people unkindly/disrespectfully.”
Like clockwork!
I think it’s still okay to talk about this topic, even if everyone has the same sin nature and nobody’s perfect. BGS seems to have experienced a huge difference between her family’s “culture of politeness” and the Indian family she’s marrying into. I think from your story and others on here, BGS knows now that her fiance’s family isn’t indicative of all Indians. (right BGS? lol)
By: chineseambassador on May 28, 2008
at 3:43 pm
CA, thank you, thank you, thank you. I am cognizant of that, although I always appreciate repeated reminders (lol).
Going beyond generality disclaimers, I might actually argue that the nature of a religion may result in varying degrees of hypocrisy, however. So perhaps I don’t fully accept that all religions have exactly the same degree of it, even if they all have some of it. It could be tested wtih statistics, so it’s just a hypothesis, and yes, Christianity would have it’s share, especially because it’s such a sizable sample here in the U.S., but I’m betting that the less ritualistic the religion, the less the hypocrisy.
I think part of the problem with my SO’s family at large seems to be that they’re into perpetuating the dogma in the way they want to perpetuate their genes (in a base human nature, thoughtless, bestial sort of way), but I don’t think they really contemplate the more profound aspects of the religion and how it suggests people treat each other. Essentially, they’re religious w/o being spiritual. I don’t think they really understand most of the rituals and stories. At least that’s the best excuse I can come up with for them. Or perhaps they just think non-Indians don’t qualify as humans.
I would guess that Buddhists and Christians do actually have less of this hypocrisy, proportionally, but it’s just a proposition.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 28, 2008
at 4:08 pm
BGS, religion is all about hypocrisy. That’s the nature of it.
We Christians know we suck, and that’s why we throw ourselves on the grace of the Atonement – because sin nature is inescapable. (And we’re supposed to “die to the flesh” on a daily basis, meaning not give into to our baser desires)
I don’t know how Buddhism works, Ang only has a few relatives that are still Buddhist and we don’t live close enough to explore that.. all I am familiar with is the ancestor worship (or the belief that dead ancestors are watching over you, can be prayed to, etc) I don’t know what their beliefs are re: the nature of man.
It might be that your fiance’s family is only Hindu in the ritualistic sense. There are some Christians that behave this way too (Not to start a war here, but I observe the exact same behavior in some of my Catholic relatives – the church is a ritual to them that has almost no bearing on their internal lives. Obviously all Catholics are not like this.)
So there is a difference between people who are ritualistic with no understanding, and people who care less about ritual and more about the internal/spiritual implications of their lives.
By: chineseambassador on May 28, 2008
at 4:33 pm
I know you guys don’t need the reminders, but there are some people out there who do, so I’ll continue to try to balance things out here with my “yay Indians!” attitude.
I would disagree with BGS’s statement that “Christians do have less of this hypocrisy.” Many of the American Christians that I know are huge hypocrites — selfish and judgemental, which I’m pretty sure is not WWJD. But I don’t think my beef with much of modern Christianity is going to add anything to this conversation, so I won’t go into it further.
CA has a great point about ritualistic vs spiritual. G (and his family) leans more toward the spiritual side and acknowledges that the rituals aren’t as important as the thoughts and meaning behind them. I think this helps them be more open-minded. Personally, I am not a fan of organized religion, but I like to think that there’s something else out there and I think that being a good person is more important to that “something else” than going to church.
Anyway, back to the original topic. G likes to say that in some ways, India is still stuck in the 1950’s. The U.S. needed to go through the Free Love and Hippies and Civil Rights era to get to where we are today, and India needs to do the same. They’re still at the beginning stages of that, and they’ll get there eventually. It takes time for a cultural mindset to change. It’s a scary transition for a lot of people, and they try to cling to what makes sense to them (arranged marriages, controlling their children) so that they don’t have to deal with the fact that today’s world is fundamentally different than it was before.
By: D on May 28, 2008
at 5:03 pm
Sorry ’bout my liberal heathen rant, BTW!
By: D on May 28, 2008
at 5:05 pm
I wonder if CBC agrees with us then and thinks perhaps her relatives are religious sans spirituality?
And on the topic of Christianity, I don’t think imperfection and hypocrisy are exactly the same thing, although I certainly see your point. From my understanding, Christians that strive to leave a Christian life day-to-day try to recognize their mistakes and violations, ask forgiveness, and move on to try harder the next day (knowing they can still go to heaven given that Christ died for them). I see this as different than dogmatically refusing to admit mistakes to such an extent as to be a hypocrite. I think being a hypocrite isn’t as much about imperfection as much as it is about being stubbornly blind and callous to it.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 28, 2008
at 5:26 pm
My background is Protestant, btw, so I’m definitely more familiar with that than other religions. I would probably still call myself Protestant if I could answer questions as to why we think that is the right religion. My hesitancy and distance from religion right now is mainly because I see it as problematic that we all tend to be of the religion we grew up with. It’s hard to say truth is whatever we happened to be taught. I’d be more comforted if more people changed, or at least explored fully, other religions so they could compare and constrast their own and argue for why they believe it’s the right one. I don’t think I accept all of the value system, either, but that for another day…it’s something I do want to explore.
What I know of Buddhism is that it’s generally very principle and spirituality-oriented and Buddhists strive to let go of earthly concerns and rewards in order to reach a state of enlightenment, which is represents a transcendance of the self. I think it goes too far in suggesting that nothing is worth striving for other than that state, but the Buddhists I have known are exactly what their principles suggest – very gentle, kind, Zen kind of people who are good friends have a mature and understanding perspective towards others. I haven’t heard anything about this ancestor worship thing. Are you sure that’s Buddhism? I thought that was just something common in China (but I don’t know for sure).
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 28, 2008
at 5:35 pm
Until you brought this up, I never even thought about the connection between their behavior and what their religion says/their beliefs. And honestly, I just don’t know enough about Hinduism to even hazard a guess on my own in-laws, much less anyone else.
I know MIL is devout to the rituals of Hinduism, which of what I understand of Hinduism, devotion is one of the paths. However, I have no idea how she connects spiritually with her religion, or if she even thinks about that. We’ve never had a conversation about it.
Conversely, FIL isn’t into the rituals/devotion, but I see him reading the Vedas and other spiritual/philosophical Indian texts (of which I don’t know all the names because they’re in Telegu or Hindi). Saresh said he actually used to study a particular philosophy and went to a group discussion regularly. I know he’s into Sai Baba, which I tried having a discussion on with him.
I feel more like CA mentioned earlier, that we are coming at this from a Judeo-Christian mindset and w/out an Eastern though/religion mindset, I’m not sure of anything on how this relates to them justifying their behavior.
And I’d be hesitant to say any religion fosters hypocrisy more than another – I think it’s all related to the specific humans practicing that religion and their culture outside of the religion.
I think from a strictly human perspective, it may not matter because people engage in all types of behavior contrary to their religious teachings and do a fabulous job of justifying their actions to themselves – even going so far as twisting their own religion in order to use it to justify what they are doing.
(D – I wouldn’t call that a rant
You have to get way more huffy in order to rank on the ranting scale. LOL You heathen, you!)
By: colorblindcupid on May 28, 2008
at 6:21 pm
Oh I’m not sure. whoops. And yes, the few Buddhists we know are very peaceful. Not at all the types to cause family wars, etc. But I likely don’t know enough of them to make some sort of statistical analysis. (ha ha this is cracking me up for some reason)
I never know what people mean when they say Christians are “judgmental”. I’m not sure if my definition matches others’, so I tend to ignore people who throw that around (sorry D). What I mean is, are we hating Christians because they are judgmental of things they consider sins? (Like do we hate Christianity because it views homosexuality as a sin, for instance?)
Or is it that some Christians are unforgiving when other people slight them, or selfish and not very spiritual? Because there are some major doctrinal issues there that won’t be covered by the blanket “judgmental!!! aaahhhhh!” Like I said, I know some Christians who are very ritualistic and not spiritual at all (and it’s hard for me to even call them “Christians”)
Which is why I don’t want to label BGS’s family as “religious Hindus” – if they are just doing the rituals and not at all practicing the karma principle or whatever, then it’s hard to say “Hindus are hypocrites” – because maybe our definition of “hindu” is a little too broad. who knows.
BGS – many people follow the faith of their parents, and many people are incredibly lazy about faith because they simply don’t care. I was a Christian early in life because of my parents, but there is no way I would have remained one if I could not get the answers I needed on my own about the faith. I don’t know… most of the Christians I communicate with on a regular basis are extensive researchers/seekers, constantly digging. Not at all the casual Easter/Christmas Christians. (I resist the urge to spit on Joel Osteen’s books when I’m in the bookstore. Muhahaha. I’m so judgmental.
)
By: chineseambassador on May 28, 2008
at 6:22 pm
This is funny. Most Chinese churches in the US are from the Baptist school…I think it must be because Chinese people overseas likely were evangelized through missionaries from that denomination…not sure though.
Besides the baptismal pool, I haven’t found a whole lot of difference between them and other churches.. but I have HEARD that some Baptist sects are very “rule oriented” and have that “judgmental streak” that I’m always hearing about. I’m scared to go to other Baptist churches now (unless it’s Chinese!) lol
I had to rule out the more liberal denominations though because they were much more into replacement theology (“the church has replaced Israel, God is done with Israel”, and all the accompanying unsavory conclusions), amillenialism, and other things I don’t find totally doctrinally sound. I don’t think any church is perfect but I think some are more true to the scriptures than others.
and now I am realizing I should just email this, rather than post it publicly on the blog!
By: chineseambassador on May 28, 2008
at 6:54 pm
It is probably just b/c I am posting too much, but I have to admit that I get frustrated that people don’t seem to really read or understand what I write. Maybe CA just writes clearer than I do, but I can’t help but feel like the points are just consistently missed, and people devolve into, “But it’s not everyone. It’s not categorical,” and so on. I am going to take a posting break out of frustration, but for the record, I think the religious vs spiritual distinction was one I made.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 28, 2008
at 7:53 pm
My point, at the core, is to move us beyond simplistic, “It’s not everyone. Everyone’s religion is the same. We can’t understand it. We can’t state generalities.” There is probably something worth thinking about in terms of religion, or at least principles. Clearly I’m not helping us get to it, but if I hear any more simplistic generalities about generalizing
I am going to go insane.
By: BerkeleyGradStudent on May 28, 2008
at 7:58 pm
BGS.
I get your points. The problem is that American culture does not allow you to openly discuss these kinds of things, because at the core of it you are *comparing* things and *making judgments*. Our culture is absolutely dogmatic about NOT making judgments, NOT comparing religion/culture/belief systems, and certainly NOT making a statement like “xyz” is better than “qrs”. It is heretical to American culture to do these things. People get extremely uncomfortable, thus we can’t even talk about it without everyone jumping in with the equivocal, general, “everyone is the same” bullshit.
I admit it makes me uncomfortable when I hear people saying “Christians are all judgmental assholes” — because I know it isn’t true for most of us. (Sorry D, not trying to pick on you seriously). Thus I’m sure it’s equally uncomfortable for Indians to hear “Indians are emotionally repressed and ritualistic” – because they know it’s not true as well for all of them.
Emotions get involved and people just can’t talk about these things without getting like that.
I do get what you’re saying, but if you want, you can email me all of your theories and I’ll gladly contribute where I can. lol
Don’t be a stranger!
By: chineseambassador on May 28, 2008
at 8:36 pm
jus a mini rant relating to 6mile’s earlier post, , brought up some memories over the past year that i had slightly forgotten but nevertheless still irritated me….. my bf’s mum = v devout hindu. she used emotional, spiritual(?) blackmail on my bf sayin that he is not supposed to be with a white girl, and that God is not happy with him.
Now. Im not one for disbelieving in God. In fact, I have a lot of faith. But seriously, fancy sayin that to your own son….especially since at the time my bf’s sister suffered a miscarriage, tragically, his mum siad it was because God was unhappy with her for not doing something or other…. still, it played on my bfs mind as u can imagine! I mean, fancy making someone feel guilty for who they are with….man that makes me bad. Conclusion = spiritual, emotional blackmail = not my cuppa tea and makes me annoyed!
ps my bf decided to tell his mum to stop blackmailing him in the end. it did the job. yippeee. i think shes realised hes not a kid that she can boss around ne more.
By: englishgirl on May 29, 2008
at 2:57 pm
that was slightly off the subject i no, but maybe an illustration of the link bwteeen behaviour and religion….?
By: englishgirl on May 29, 2008
at 2:58 pm
that sounds like his mother is just willing to use religious guilt to get what she wants – just another example of religion and behavior not quite lining up?
*standard disclaimer here about how Christians do stupid shiot like this too*
By: chineseambassador on May 29, 2008
at 3:41 pm
How did she justify the “God is unhappy with you” statement? Because I have a hard time believing Hinduism says anything at all about not marrying people outside your own race (much less that things like a miscarriage are the result of God being angry with you! Geez!).
I’m curious how as a devout Hindu she even reconciles that kind of behavior with karma.
By: colorblindcupid on May 29, 2008
at 5:19 pm
exactly my thoughts. its one of the things i still struggle to get round my head. and i dnt think ill ever quite understand the mind set.
i guess its a little like puttin the “fear of God” into u, which i do no of some wacky, far fetched Christians who have used similar (but not quite so harsh) lines about God not being happy.
as far as i can pick up from my bf, his mother is v devout as in shes a healer, and clarvoyent and a lot of ppl visit her at home for these reasons. Now, Im open minded….i dont doubt shes not, i dont doubt that she is, but i thik she abused it a bit like u say to persuade her son to finsih with me. actually stuff it, she abused it a lot. part of me wonders whether she did it as a test, to test M about how serious he was about us.
but 8 months on its a different story, they want to meet me now (and im brickin it naturally) bt i seriously want to approach it in a neutral way, but things like that make it v hard to not wonder about whats really goin on in her head lol.
u no what its one big mysterious mind game sometimes. the whole communication thing frustrates me. i am a v straightforward person, i like to lay the cards on the table as such, and i want to meet them to put their minds at rest, but at the same time, my bf has made it quite clear that meetnig them is kinda like signifiyin engagement time – and im not jus ready for that (even tho it is likely to happen), we’re not ready as a couple and not ready in ourselves to make that commitment jusy yet.
i thjink ill jus have to work on my patience skils for the time being!!
By: englishgirl on May 29, 2008
at 8:11 pm
“It isn’t personal!”
Oh, that’s so familiar to me! In the early days (or should I say years *eye roll*) of our relationship, we had a lot of rows concerning FIL not liking it when I visited, or indeed when the OH visited me for more than one day. I know, don’t ask… we were young (still at university) and living with our respective parents two hours away from each other. It was difficult.
But the FIL’s problem (we’re not married btw, it’s just easier) wasn’t so much to do with me not being Indian, but being a generally grumpy, anti-social curmudgeon who dislikes have any guests in the house, Indian or otherwise. Hence the “it isn’t personal!” thing. It didn’t make it any easier, needless to say…
It was some comfort at least that my MIL welcomed me from day one
By: watchthestars on May 30, 2008
at 11:39 am
english girl points out a very typical case of black mail by indian parents, hehe.
I fall on the opposite side of the emotional spectrum, blackmailing them back works wonders.
By: 6mile on June 1, 2008
at 6:47 am
haha. i never thought about it like that way round 6mile…..love it
By: englishgirl on June 1, 2008
at 4:35 pm